Response to RI on baptized non-Catholics

a Mass of Contradictions and Illogical Nonsense

By Bro. Peter Dimond, O.S.B.

* Note: this is a part 3 against R.I. It presupposes some familiarity with the first two articles refuting him: Refuting R.I. and Our Challenge to Debate R.I. – Refused in Cowardly Fashion.

On Feb. 25, 2005, R.I. came out with a new article that was, in large part, a response to my article against him. This is certain because much of it is a response to specific points that were first brought out in my article. In his article, he just digs himself deeper into contradictions.

R.I. finally gives us a date

For years we have demanded that R.I. tell us when all the people above reason became heretics at the churches he describes in his abjuration.

R. I.’s Abjuration, #31: “I reject and condemn as apostates and heretics, in these latter days of the Great Apostasy, any patriarch, primate, cardinal, archbishop, bishop, priest or layman associated with the Conciliar Church and Antipope John Paul II, whose heresies have been manifest to all, along with the papal deposition teachings that are available to anyone who seeks the truth. I acknowledge all those in these latter days of the Great Apostasy with the use of reason, who are associated with the Conciliar Church and Antipope John Paul II as non-Catholics who have been latae sententiae excommunicated, and are outside the Catholic Church with no exceptions or excuses for ignorance.”

R. I.’s Abjuration, #32. “I reject and condemn any sect or person that teach that “Catholics” can attend the Masses of manifest/notorious heretics, or Masses of those who are in communion with manifest/notorious heretics. Therefore, I reject, in these latter days of the Great Apostasy, all priests who pray in communion (una cum) with Antipope John Paul II in the Te Igitur prayer of the Canon of the Mass. I reject and condemn all the laymen who attend these churches and chapels, and acknowledge them as apostates and heretics who are outside the Catholic Church.”

For years R.I. ignored this question, but he finally answered it in his recent article. He tells us that all exceptions to believing that John Paul II is the Pope ceased in 1997, with the promulgation of John Paul II’s heretical Catechism. At that point, he says, the heresies of the Conciliar Church were “institutionalized” in all of the churches (including the SSPX churches), so that all the baptized children reaching the age of reason in these churches became non-Catholic heretics.

R.I.: “Once the Anglican heresy was not only accepted in individual churches but also institutionalized in all of the churches, all baptized children attaining the use of reason in these non-Catholic churches became responsible for professing belief in a false religion and joining a heretical sect, and thus lost the habit of the Catholic faith. For heresy to be institutionalized in all of the churches, it would have to be officially promulgated by the head of the new Church (in this case King Henry VIII) to the whole flock and to all of the churches. The whole flock must be required to believe in the heresy. In the Conciliar (Vatican II) Church these conditions were met when its head, apostate Antipope John Paul II, on September 8, 1997, in his so-called Apostolic Constitution Laetamur Magnopere, officially promulgated the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church; in so doing, he bound this catechism and its heresies as the rule of faith upon his whole flock (all of the bishops, priests, and laymen) and thus all of the churches under him.”

But in the same article, R.I. says that the Conciliar Church is a non-Catholic sect that was founded by Paul VI in 1965.

R.I. “The promulgation of the Vatican II documents by its apostate leader, Antipope Paul VI, was the genesis of the Conciliar (Vatican II) Church. The heretical Vatican II Council created the Conciliar Church, just like the Oath of Supremacy in England created the Anglican Church.”

He admits that the Conciliar Church, a non-Catholic sect, was founded in 1965 with the promulgation of Vatican II. But he says that all the people at these non-Catholic churches didn’t become heretics until 1997! Thus, R.I. admits that people were attending the non-Catholic churches of a non-Catholic sect (the Conciliar Church), and even officiating at them as priests (such as Fr. Feeney and Padre Pio), for up to 32 years (1965-1997), and were still not necessarily heretics. Does anyone not see that this is a complete contradiction to his position? Does anyone not see what a death-blow this is to R.I.’s whole schismatic theology? It is a death-blow to his position because it proves that R.I. agrees with us that people become heretics and join non-Catholic sects when they become aware of the heresy and then obstinately reject the Catholic position. But R.I. has condemned that position as totally heretical!

R.I.: “Therefore, according to Peter, it is not a matter of age but of learning the Catholic position and then denying it. Peter’s heresy is the root of the denial of the Salvation Dogma. It was very first one the Salvation heretics introduced to laymen in the 19^th century.”

That which R.I. says is the root denial of the salvation dogma is exactly what he also teaches above. He teaches that people were attending these non-Catholic Conciliar churches for 32 years but still weren’t heretics because they weren’t aware of the issues! Does anyone fail to see the evil behind this totally blinded hypocrite? He condemns the true position (when we teach it) and then teaches the same thing when it is convenient for him. Let’s continue exposing this schismatic hypocrite.

R.I. says that in order for all the children to become culpable at the age of reason, the heresy must be institutionalized in all the churches. This happens, according to R.I., when leader of the sect promulgates the heresies and binds them upon all of his subjects.

R.I.: “For heresy to be institutionalized in all of the churches, it would have to be officially promulgated by the head of the new Church (in this case King Henry VIII) to the whole flock and to all of the churches. The whole flock must be required to believe in the heresy. In the Conciliar (Vatican II) Church these conditions were met when its head, apostate Antipope John Paul II, on September 8, 1997….”

But R.I. is wrong again; the heresies of the Conciliar Church were institutionalized (according to his definition) in all of the churches not in 1997, but in 1965, because Paul VI solemnly approved, promulgated and bound all his subjects to the heretical teachings of Vatican II.

EACH ONE OF THE 16 DOCUMENTS OF V-2 ENDS WITH THESE WORDS:

“EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THE THINGS SET FORTH IN THIS DECREE HAS WON THE CONSENT OF THE FATHERS. WE, TOO, BY THE APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY CONFERRED ON US BY CHRIST, JOIN WITH THE VENERABLE FATHERS IN APPROVING, DECREEING, AND ESTABLISHING THESE THINGS IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND WE DIRECT THAT WHAT HAS THUS BEEN ENACTED IN SYNOD BE PUBLISHED TO GOD’S GLORY... I, PAUL, BISHOP OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.”

In his speech closing Vatican II, Paul VI also solemnly bound all the faithful to the decrees of Vatican II. Notice the bolded and underlined portion below:

Antipope Paul VI, “Papal” Brief declaring Vatican II Closed, Dec. 8, 1965:

“At last all which regards the holy Ecumenical Council has, with the help of God, been accomplished and ALL THE CONSTITUTIONS, DECREES, DECLARATIONS, AND VOTES HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE DELIBERATION OF THE SYNOD AND PROMULGATED BY US. Therefore, we decided to close for all intents and purposes, WITH OUR APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY, this same Ecumenical Council called by our predecessor, Pope John XXIII, which opened October 11, 1962, and which was continued by us after his death. WE DECIDE MOREOVER THAT ALL THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED SYNODALLY [AT VATICAN II] IS TO BE RELIGIOUSLY OBSERVED BY ALL THE FAITHFUL, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church… WE HAVE APPROVED AND ESTABLISHED THESE THINGS, DECREEING THAT THE PRESENT LETTERS ARE AND REMAIN STABLE AND VALID, AND ARE TO HAVE LEGAL EFFECTIVENESS, so that they be disseminated and obtain full and complete effect, and so that they may be fully convalidated by those whom they concern or may concern now and in the future; and so that, as it be judged and described, ALL EFFORTS CONTRARY TO THESE THINGS BY WHOEVER OR WHATEVER AUTHORITY, KNOWINGLY OR IN IGNORANCE, BE INVALID AND WORTHLESS FROM NOW ON. Given at Rome, at St. Peter’s, under the [seal of the] ring of the fisherman, December 8… the year 1965, the third year of our Pontificate.”

This, ladies and gentlemen, blows away R.I.’s entire article and his abjuration. It proves that, according to his own definition, the heresies of the Vatican II Church were institutionalized in 1965, when Paul VI bound all of his flock to accept the Vatican II heresies.

R.I.: “For heresy to be institutionalized in all of the churches, it would have to be officially promulgated by the head of the new Church (in this case King Henry VIII) to the whole flock and to all of the churches. The whole flock must be required to believe in the heresy. In the Conciliar (Vatican II) Church these conditions were met when its head, apostate Antipope John Paul II, on September 8, 1997….”

I just proved that this happened in 1965. Hence, this means that R.I. would have to say that all people (above reason) at all the Conciliar Churches were non-Catholic heretics beginning in 1965, but he doesn’t! R.I. says that people were attending these non-Catholic churches – and even working at them as priests – for a whopping 32 more years and still could have been Catholics, until 1997! This proves: 1) that R.I. doesn’t know what he is talking about; for the heresies were institutionalized, according to his own definition, in 1965, not in 1997 as he says; and 2) he is a heretic who denies the salvation dogma according to his own criteria; because he composed a letter stating that we (the Dimond Brothers) deny the salvation dogma (which is NONSENSE) – for teaching that the children of sect members don’t become sect members at the age of reason, but when they obstinately embrace the sect’s heresy – when he teaches the exact same thing, by stating that people were attending a non-Catholic church for 32 years before they became members of the non-Catholic sect!

Thus, by his own definition, he denies the salvation dogma, and he is a complete heretic who holds the “root heresy of the great apostasy.” R.I. is a complete abomination who is as blind as a bat, who doesn’t know what he is talking about. When the blind (such as R.I.) lead the blind, both fall into the ditch – the everlasting ditch of hell where he is headed. But there is more contradictory nonsense in his article:

R.I.: “Once the Anglican heresy was not only accepted in individual churches but also institutionalized in all of the churches, all baptized children attaining the use of reason in these non-Catholic churches became responsible for professing belief in a false religion and joining a heretical sect, and thus lost the habit of the Catholic faith. For heresy to be institutionalized in all of the churches, it would have to be officially promulgated by the head of the new Church (in this case King Henry VIII) to the whole flock and to all of the churches. The whole flock must be required to believe in the heresy.”

He says the heresies must be institutionalized in all the churches for all the children to become culpable heretics at the age of reason. He uses the Anglican sect as an example. (He thus admits that people were attending the Anglican churches for a period of time and were not heretics because Henry VIII didn’t yet “institutionalize” them. Thus, he again embraces our position, the very position he has condemned as heretical.)

But, let’s think about this: in order for all the children to become culpable, he says, the sect’s leader must bind the whole sect to the heresies. But most Protestant sects don’t have a head who has bound them to anything. The Anglican Sect, which recognized Henry VIII as its head, was unusual in that it recognized a head. Most Protestants sects recognize no authority whatsoever and therefore the heresy could not be institutionalized (according to R.I.’s definition) in all Protestant churches even for hundreds of years. Therefore, R.I. is admitting that it’s acceptable to believe that certain people above reason at these Protestant churches (where the heresy has not yet been “institutionalized” by the promulgation of the heresy by the head of the sect, since the sect recognizes no head) may be Catholics! Anyone with an ounce of Catholic common sense can see that this totally contradicts his entire position, and embraces the very thing he calls heretical.

R.I. is always contradicting himself because his position is false

The schismatic R.I.’s position on when people become heretics will always be contradictory, as we have proven again and again, because it is false. He fails to realize the truth that people don’t become heretics corporately, but individually. He fails to realize what we proved in the article, that the children of heretics become heretics, not at the age of reason – nor in a coruscating flash that instantly knocks everyone going to a particular priest for Mass outside the Church – but as soon as they obstinately reject a Catholic dogma or the authority of the Catholic Church.

Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351: “…We ask: In the first place whether you and the Church of the Armenians which is obedient to you, believe that all those who in baptism have received the same Catholic faith, and afterwards have withdrawn and will withdraw in the future from the communion of this same Roman Church, which one alone is Catholic, are schismatic and heretical, if they remain obstinately separated from the faith of this Roman Church. In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.” (Denz. 570b)

Clement VI teaches exactly what we taught in our article and what R.I. called heretical. But then R.I. teaches this same position at times (e.g., when he admits that people attending the Conciliar churches were Catholics from 1965 to 1997 until they obstinately embraced the heresy), but then rejects it at other times (e.g., when he says that all at these churches without exception became heretics in a sudden flash in 1997). He is thus a liar and a double-tongued heretic.

Even if the heresy were institutionalized in 1997 it still wouldn’t prove his abjuration

I proved above that R.I.’s assertion that the Vatican II heresies were institutionalized in the Vatican II churches in 1997 is incorrect, as it happened (by the standard of his own definition) when Paul VI bound his flock to Vatican II in 1965. But what does John Paul II’s promulgation of the New Catechism have to do with R.I.’s declaration that all the people at the SSPX and other independent chapels are heretics “without any exception or excuses for ignorance”? The SSPX and other independent chapels don’t use the New Catechism, so his assertion that they are all heretics based upon the promulgation of the New Catechism is clearly false and schismatic. Further, just because the New Catechism was promulgated in 1997 doesn’t mean that everyone in those churches became a heretic at that very instant, just like everyone in the Vatican II churches didn’t become heretics the day after Paul VI promulgated Vatican II. R.I. is just making up things as he goes along; his schismatic heart is closed to the truth that they become heretics when they obstinately embrace the heresies in the New Catechism or the heresies of Vatican II or John Paul II or obstinately reject the facts proving that John Paul II is not Pope.

R.I.’s own life is a good example to refute his schismatic theology

Before R.I. was a Sedevacantist, he believed that John Paul II was the Pope and attended various “traditional chapels,” including SSPX, etc. He believed that John Paul II was the Pope, even though he denounced his scandalous activities. He believed that one could not judge that John Paul II is not the Pope, and thought that Fr. Wathen’s book Who Shall Ascend, which denounces Sedevacantism, was excellent and “covers it all from A to Z.” R.I. wrongly thought that the Consecration of the bread in the new Mass is valid, and that Bishop Lefebvre was only a material heretic for teaching that souls can be saved in false religions. R.I. holds none of those positions today. Do I believe that R.I. was a heretic at that time? No, because he rejected what he knew about John Paul II’s scandalous activities as contrary to the Faith, and hadn’t seen Fr. Wathen’s position on Sedevacantism refuted. Nor had he seen his position on the New Mass being valid, etc. refuted. But, if he maintained those positions after they were refuted for him, he would have been a heretic – just like he is definitely a heretic and a schismatic now for denying the dogma that revelation ended with the death of the last apostle (as I proved in “Refuting R.I.”) and condemning as heretics many people who are not.

R.I. attempts to mitigate the effects of his schismatic blunder

In his article, while basically admitting that his position is indefensible, R.I. says in so many words that even if he is wrong about this it is not a big deal!

R.I. “One certainly cannot say that my opinion places me in schism, for from whom would I be in schism? Whom am I illegally avoiding in religious matters? Am I in schism from children under the age of fourteen who have the use of reason and who are members of the notoriously heretical Vatican II Church whose heresies have been institutionalized in its local churches in these latter days of the Great Apostasy?”

R.I., your abjuration and your other declarations absolutely and without a doubt place you in schism. You have without a doubt created your own sect. You are in schism from all the Catholics at the independent “traditional” chapels whom you say are heretics who are not, both those under 14 and those above 14. If you weren’t a schismatic who rejects the obstinacy requirement for heresy, and who condemns people as heretics who are not (such as ourselves), then you would see the falsity of your other schismatic positions, such as:

R.I.’s abjuration, #34: “I reject and condemn as illegal and schismatic any bishop or priest that was consecrated or ordained by the non-Catholic Bishops, Marcel Lefebvre, De Castro Mayer, Noe Thuc, Carmona, Musey, Roberto Martinez, Guerand des Lauriers, Mendez, Clarence Kelly, Robert McKenna, Oliver Oravec, John Hesson, Mark Pivarunas, Dolan, Vezelis, Patrick Taylor, Thomas Sebastian, or any non-Catholic bishop or priest in their lineage who has not repented and abjured from his illegal consecration or ordination.”

This is clearly false and schismatic. Just because a priest was ordained or consecrated by one of these men does not mean that the priest is a heretic or a schismatic, for he may not have been aware that such a Bishop was a heretic or a schismatic. If R.I.’s declaration above were true, we would have to say that all the priests ordained by the apostate Archbishop Cushing of Boston (the man who condemned Fr. Feeney) were heretics; but we cannot make that statement. A Catholic with common sense, who is not a schismatic, can clearly see the reasonability of this assertion and the unreasonability of the assertion of R.I.

By rejecting the truth about what constitutes heresy, R.I. falls into all kinds of other schismatical and unnecessary declarations (as shown above). R.I., don’t mock God and attempt to justify your schismatic views and the ridiculous statements in your abjuration by saying: “what does it matter anyway.” It matters because it affects all of your other schismatic views.

More attempted Justification from R.I. for his schismatic blunder

R.I. “Lastly, my opinion is prudent. It is safe. For the sake of the argument, let us rashly presume that there are some Catholics with the use of reason who are in communion with John Paul II and the Vatican II Church in these latter days of the Great Apostasy. What purpose does this rash presumption serve other than to instill a false confidence of being Catholic in the overwhelming majority who are not Catholic. Who would gamble with the fate of souls by daring to presume innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence in these latter days of the Great Apostasy? Who would dare presume to know the limit in which invincible ignorance no longer applies? Are you sure that some of those with the use of reason are innocent? If there were a 50 percent chance that some may be innocent and a 50 percent chance that none are innocent, why gamble with the fate of souls? The safe course is to denounce them all so that the fear of God may come upon all of them and cause them to sincerely seek, embrace, and profess the truth, and thus abjure from the Great Apostasy so as to remove all doubt.”

First, notice that R.I. says that this is now only his “opinion.” Interesting… He knows he cannot refute the facts, so he is abandoning the solemn declaration of #’s 31 and 32 of his abjuration. Now they are only “opinions.” If it’s just his opinion, then why did he have “Catholics” sign this in a solemn abjuration and profession of Faith? He is condemned out of his own mouth, because he has his followers make a solemn profession of absolute Faith in his “opinion.” Here is what his followers signed their names to about each of his 46 “articles,” and tell me that he is not a false Christ binding them to Faith in his false opinions:

R.I.’s abjuration: “I, being of sound mind and reason and by the use of my unrestrained free will, on this date of _______________________, attest, assent, and humbly submit to each and all of the above five pages and forty-six points of this abjuration and profession of faith, in their entirety and without any reservation. I testify that each of my statements and condemnations have not been written over, stricken out, or erased and re-written, and that all the necessary blank lines have been filled in so as to protect from future tampering of this document.”

Those who signed this fell outside the Catholic Church by following the false Christ, R.I., who gets people to make an absolutely profession of Faith purely in his word – something he cannot prove from Church teaching – as if it were the word of Christ or the dogma of the Church (which are the same). By the way, R.I. claims that all of his writings are by “the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ.”

Second, R.I. says that only good can come out of his declarations. It is “prudent,” he says, to declare that all who believe that John Paul II is the Pope are heretics without exception; and it is “prudent,” he says, to declare that all people at all the other independent chapels are heretics. If that were true, why doesn’t R.I. declare that all people from 1965 onward were heretics? Wouldn’t that be the safer course and most prudent?

Remember, I proved that Paul VI bound his flock to the heresies of Vatican II in 1965. According to R.I.’s “logic,” it would be most prudent to declare that all from 1965 onward who weren’t sedevacantists and attended any chapel which accepted Paul VI were heretics? But the absurdity of this is obvious, and even R.I. admits that it would be schismatic to condemn the many Catholics who were not aware of the issues at that time, such as Fr. Feeney and Padre Pio. (He has even stated that Fr. Feeney and Padre Pio were saintly). Thus, he refutes his claim that only good can come out of declaring people heretics who are not. No, it is not good, but schismatic.

And the same applies today; it would be schismatic to say that all the people at the independent “traditional” chapels are heretics, even if the number of the Catholics is getting smaller because of the increasing circulation and adoption of the heresies of these groups. One cannot presume or declare them all heretics because these independent traditional churches are not notorious meeting houses of heretics in the external forum. They are not notorious meeting houses of heretics in the external forum, since they claim to be Catholic and claim to adhere to the traditional, pre-Vatican II faith and worship. [Note: A distinction should be made between the independent/“traditional” churches and the churches which adhere to the Novus Ordo religion. The churches which adhere to the Novus Ordo religion, and where the heresies of the Novus Ordo are notoriously taught (which includes most of them), are basically Protestant churches; so that, at this point, it is safe to say that almost all the people who go there are heretics and/or in mortal sin just like the people who attend the Protestant churches, the only difference being that the Protestant churches admit that they reject the Catholic Faith in the external forum. But this situation is not the same at the independent/traditional chapels where the Novus Ordo religion has not been imbibed, since they profess to reject the new religion in its basic content; they reject false ecumenism; and they claim to adhere to traditional Catholic Faith and worship, though they are wrong and/or heretical about one or more dogmatic positions touching upon the Faith today.] There can be individuals at the independent/ “traditional” chapels today who were in the same situation that Fr. Feeney and Padre Pio were with regard to Paul VI. To condemn them without proof is no different from condemning Padre Pio and Fr. Feeney as heretics without proof of obstinacy, which R.I. does not do. One must have evidence of pertinacity against the individual, unless they are present in a notoriously heretical church (such as Protestant or Eastern Schismatic), which is not what we are talking about.

R.I.: “Who would dare presume to know the limit in which invincible ignorance no longer applies? Are you sure that some of those with the use of reason are innocent? If there were a 50 percent chance that some may be innocent and a 50 percent chance that none are innocent, why gamble with the fate of souls? The safe course is to denounce them all so that the fear of God may come upon all of them and cause them to sincerely seek, embrace, and profess the truth, and thus abjure from the Great Apostasy so as to remove all doubt.”

Notice how with R.I. the end always justifies the means. One of R.I.’s followers named P.M. calumniated us publicly by stating that we copied things from a Protestant website, which was a complete lie. P.M. then admitted his sin by acknowledging to us that he didn’t know if what he said was true; it wasn’t true, of course. When I pointed out to P.M. that he was guilty of a grave sin and a calumny, he went running to his false Christ, R.I., to justify his sin. R.I. told P.M. that he was not guilty of calumny or sin in this regard. P.M.’s false conscience was appeased, and he even wrote to me, commenting on R.I.’s words to him, “You see Peter, I am not guilty of calumny.” As I said, with R.I. the end justifies the means.

For instance, in one of his writings he stated that the founder of our Monastery was kicked out of St. Vincent’s Archabbey because he wouldn’t accept the New Mass. But the founder of our Monastery left with permission to start his own Community before the New Mass was promulgated. When that was brought to R.I.’s attention, he said: “So what…” It was no problem that he made it up, because his schismatic end justifies the means.

So, when you refute R.I., as we have, he tries to justify his schismatic positions by saying it “was the safer course” to denounce them all. R.I., then denounce everyone from 1965 onward or shut your schismatic mouth – you abominable coward, who makes a pretense of being a defender of the Faith but refuses to debate us because we would expose your easily refuted positions. When you refute R.I., he will also say that “you are straining out gnats.” Yes, all of your heresies and schismatic declarations are just “gnats,” R.I.

A Revealing Admission

In his article, R.I. writes:

“Culpability of baptized children who profess a false religion or join a heretical sect – This section will deal with baptized children who have attained the use of reason and who profess belief in a false religion or join a heretical sect. Much of what I cover in this section also applies to adults; but because this situation is most common among children, I will only be referring to them.”

This is a very revealing admission by R.I., which probably was missed by his few enamored followers who are blinded by the cult of personality. Notice that he says: “Much of what I cover in this section also applies to adults; but because this situation is most common among children, I will only be referring to them.” What “situation” is he talking about? What “situation” is most common among children? Remember, R.I. has already taught very clearly that all of these people – young children and adults – become heretics at the age of reason. Thus, there is nothing to distinguish and no “situation” to be examined, right? I quote:

R.I.: “So, please, no excuses for the 10-year-old heretics and/or schismatics in these chapels. If you excuse them you must then excuse 10-year-old Protestants and Greek and Russian Schismatics. The hard facts are that young children take the faith of their parents or guardians.”

R.I., Article on us: “A Protestant or Schismatic church is still a Protestant and Schismatic church even though the baptized infants who attend it are Catholic. Once the infants reach the age or [sic] reason they are culpable because they are willing members of the non-Catholic church. If they [sic] were not true then there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.”

That’s quite clear: “Once the infants reach the age or [sic] reason they are culpable because they are willing members of the non-Catholic church. If they [sic] were not true then there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.” He clearly teaches that they all become heretics at the age of reason. Thus, there is no “situation” to be considered, so what is he talking about? The fact is that he is now admitting what we said – and what he condemned as heretical – that there is a process by which children become or may not become heretics after the age of reason, even though they were born to sect members. They don’t all become heretics at the age of reason. And because he is now admitting our position, this is why he says that “this situation” is most common among children.

Sorry R.I., but your rash declarations have already told us that there is no “situation” because they all become heretics at the age of reason. But now there is a “situation” whereby children may not become heretics, thus proving that we were correct and that you were schismatic again for declaring that what we said is heretical. You are proving that you have changed your position again.

R.I. unwittingly proves our position on what are the “meetinghouses of heretics”

Here is another important point: R.I.’s statements in his article prove our position on what are “meetinghouses of heretics.” In my article, I pointed out that the baptized children of Protestants and Eastern Schismatics don’t become Protestant heretics and Eastern Schismatics until they obstinately embrace the heresy and schism of their parents. I also pointed out, however, that if they spend any significant period of time in a notoriously heretical non-Catholic church building (such as Protestant or Eastern Schismatic), which professes to be non-Catholic in the external forum, that they must be presumed to be heretics. I wrote:

It should be pointed out that those people who are above reason in notoriously heretical or schismatical church buildings, such as Protestant or Eastern Schismatic churches, must be presumed to be heretics in the external forum, even if a few of them aren’t because they have not yet obstinately rejected a dogma or the Church. This is because malice is presumed in the external forum until the contrary is proven (canon 2200.2). We cannot say infallibly that all of them are, in fact, heretics because it’s possible that a small number of the younger ones are not heretics, but Catholics, as I have shown. But they must be presumed to be, and one could determine whether they are obstinate if one simply met them and asked them some questions about what they know about Catholic teaching and what they are willing to accept.

Further, those few people who may be Catholics in such heretical or schismatical church buildings will almost certainly become heretics and schismatics if they remain surrounded by heretics and schismatics for a significant period of time. The chance that they will not obstinately embrace the heresy surrounding them if they spend many years around it is extremely small.

Further, just because a very small number of the people above reason at such heretical and schismatical church buildings are not necessarily heretics (because they don’t reject any dogma of the Catholic Faith they are aware of) doesn’t mean that they are free from mortal sin. On the contrary, it is probable that almost all of such persons are in mortal sin. Those who are not taught more about the Catholic Faith will not be able, barring an extraordinary grace, to avoid the occasions of sin. If they aren’t taught about the necessity of Confession, avoiding mortal sin and the occasions of sin; if they are not taught about the necessity of devotion to Our Lady and the Rosary; if they are not taught about the necessity of a prayer life, etc., they will most certainly fall into mortal sin in a short period of time.

But, I pointed out that the presumption at the SSPX churches, other independent chapels in communion with John Paul II, and sedevacantist chapels where the priests deny the salvation dogma, would not be exactly the same, since these churches profess to be Catholic and profess to adhere to the traditional Catholic Faith in the external forum, not non-Catholic. I wrote:

Regarding the people who are in churches which profess to be Catholic but are actually heretical since various heresies are held by the priests (such as the churches of the SSPX, etc.), the presumption would not be the same as at the notoriously heretical Protestant and Eastern Schismatic churches. This is because these churches (the SSPX’s churches, etc.) profess to be Catholic in the external forum [and profess to hold the pre-Vatican II Faith], even though the priests violate the Faith. Thus, one couldn’t presume that all those who go there are heretics; you must have evidence against the individual to presume him a heretic, which is the case with many of those who go there. If one doesn’t know what a person at such a church believes (the SSPX’s churches, etc.), one would have to get to know him and talk to him about what he believes and is willing to accept to form a judgment about whether he is a heretic.

So, here is my point: R.I. implicitly acknowledges the truth of this position when he admits that the Conciliar Church was founded in 1965, but that all the people didn’t become heretics (according to him) until 1997. Think about this: would he admit that people weren’t heretics who were attending Protestant churches or the Eastern Schismatic churches for 32 years? No (notwithstanding what I proved above about the implications of his contradictory position on the “institutionalization” of heresy at Protestant churches). So, he is admitting that there is some difference between the traditional/independent/SSPX churches, etc. and the Protestant and Eastern Schismatic churches, is he not? Yes. What is that difference? The difference is that the independent chapels (SSPX, etc.) profess to be Catholic in the external forum, not non-Catholic. This, in turn, proves that his attempt to equate attendance at an SSPX or a Byzantine liturgy with attendance at an Eastern Schismatic church is false. Whether he realizes it or not, by such an admission he is proving our claim that there is a definite distinction between meeting houses of heretics (Protestant and Eastern Schismatic churches) and churches which profess to be Catholic in the external forum but are heretical (such as SSPX, CMRI, etc.).

R.I. quotes Orestes Brownson and Fr. Muller without knowing that they teach what he condemns

R.I. quotes Fr. Muller and Orestes Brownson as if they agree with him on when people become heretics.

R.I. writes: “Orestes A. Brownson (1803-1876), a great defender of the Salvation Dogma when it was first denied by many so-called Catholics, refuted the heretics that were trying to place baptized children with the use of reason inside the Catholic Church even though these children had professed belief in false religions or had joined heretical sects (such as Protestantism or Anglicanism):”

R.I. “…this is what happened to Fr. Michael Muller who was fighting the Dimond Brother type heretics…”

In his blind pride and ignorance he is oblivious to the fact that they teach many times the very thing he condemns as heretical.

Fr. Michael Muller, The Catholic Dogma, p. 166: “Not guilty of the sin of heresy are all those who, without any fault of theirs, were brought up in a sect of Protestantism, and who never had an opportunity of knowing better. This class of Protestants are called invincibly or inculpably ignorant of the true religion, or material heretics.”

The only way that baptized infants when reaching the age of reason can cease to be Catholic is through heresy, schism or apostasy. But Fr. Muller is saying that many of these people among the Protestants (!) are not guilty of heresy. Yeah, I’m sure he would agree with R.I. that all above reason (without exception) at the SSPX, CMRI, etc. are guilty of heresy! Yeah, sure he would. Thus, Fr. Muller is teaching (whether he would admit it or not) that certain of these people attending Protestant church buildings are still Catholics. Now, I would not have said what Fr. Muller says above. I articulated my position on when these people become heretics in detail in the previous article. All who are Protestants (i.e., all who reject an article of Catholic Faith) are heretics. In my article against R.I., I discussed when people become Protestant heretics. But my point here is simply that R.I. calls Fr. Muller a defender of the salvation dogma, despite the fact that he teaches exactly what R.I. condemns, while R.I. says we are heretical. R.I. is a blind fool.

R.I. also calls Orestes Brownson a defender of the dogma. Here is what Orestes Brownson says, as quoted by Fr. Michael Muller in The Catholic Dogma, p. 61:

Orestes Brownson, as quoted in The Catholic Dogma by Fr. Muller, p. 61: “There are, we like to believe, among Protestants, many individuals who are far superior to their Protestantism…It is not these, as men, as individuals, that we denounce, for many of them we honor and esteem, but the Protestantism with which they are associated.”

If he is saying that he esteems Protestants, then his statement is heretical. But R.I. calls this man a defender of the salvation dogma.

Orestes Brownson and Fr. Muller devastate R.I.’s whole theology

Fr. Muller quoting Orestes Brownson, in The Catholic Dogma, p. 204: “Unquestionably, authorities in any number may be cited to prove – what nobody [EXCEPT R.I.] disputes – that pertinacity in rejecting the authority of the Church is essential to formal or culpable heresy, that persons may be in heretical societies without being culpable heretics, and therefore, that we cannot say that all who live and die in such societies are damned precisely for the sin of heresy.”

Fr. Muller is teaching exactly what R.I. called heresy. He is teaching, via Orestes Brownson, that persons in heretical buildings (such as the SSPX) above reason may not be heretics. I hasten to point out that if it is a notoriously heretical building, such as a Protestant church, all who spend significant time there must be presumed to be heretics. But it is the consistent teaching that not all persons in these buildings definitely become heretics at the age of reason, but when they obstinately embrace the heresy – exactly what we said and what R.I. condemned.

So, let me summarize: Fr. Muller and Brownson prove exactly what I said, and what R.I. called heretical; they prove that what I said is the consistent teaching of countless authorities; yet R.I. says that they are great and that we are heretical. Does one really need to say more?

More Contradictions Spilling from the Mouth of R.I.

R.I. The Abjuration…and a warning…, p. 6: “There are those who have been in a publicly non-Catholic chapel for less than six months and the heresies/schisms have not yet been manifest to them while they have been diligently seeking the truth; these would be guilty of invincible ignorance, but are still guilty in the external forum and presumed to be guilty in the internal forum, until they remove the obstacle.”

So, R.I., would that be after the heresies have been “institutionalized” in all the churches or before? Would that apply to the Protestants churches as well as the “publicly non-Catholic Conciliar churches”? How does that coincide with your declaration that all exceptions have ceased for ignorance, and your declaration that they all become heretics at the age of reason? How does this “six-month grace period” harmonize with your 32 year allowance from 1965 to 1997? His whole position is just one big heap of nonsense with so many contradictions that it is a joke.

I really considered stopping here, since nothing more really needs to be written to refute R.I.’s schismatic position. But for those who may be concerned, I have continued with a detailed response to some other points relevant to R.I.’s new article.

Other Dishonest Tactics of R.I.

R.I. veils his illogical arguments, non-sequiturs, and subtle evasions by so much circular reasoning that his readers, because they have itching ears for false teachers, most probably won’t see through all of it and identify that he is not proving anything, but rather is contradicting himself. If you read R.I., you must be aware of this, since he consistently uses all kinds of evasions, straw men, illogical arguments, emotional distractions, circular reasoning, etc. to influence his reader. I will soon be posting a summary of his heresies and dishonest tactics. For instance…

R.I. consistently lies about his opponent by attributing to him positions he doesn’t hold

A straw man is a position that is attributed to someone that he doesn’t hold. It is used by heretics, false prophets and illogical persons to deceive people, so that when they smash the straw man (the position that the person doesn’t hold) it appears to the unwary as if they are smashing the person’s argument, when they aren’t. R.I. uses the devilish straw man again and again. In one article about us, he used it so many times that it’s truly incredible, but it reveals the snake’s ugly head. Watch this, it’s truly incredible:

R.I., from our debate, page 18: “Michael and Peter, the next week when you attend Mass at what you admit is a non-Catholic church…”

R.I., from our debate, same page (18): “Peter, the whole premise of your argument is that the church you attend Mass at is a Catholic Church…”

R.I., from our debate, page 14: “Or, being you admit the church you attend Mass at is a non-Catholic church…”

Who’s speaking this time? The devil, or R.I.?

R.I., from our debate, page 16: “The question then is, ‘Do you think the Eastern Rite churches of the Conciliar Church under John Paul II are Catholic churches?’ That is certainly what you imply.”

R.I., from our debate, page 14: “Peter, who are you praying and singing with when you attend Mass, at what you admit is a non-Catholic church, on Sunday? You have mixed apples with orange by changing topics.”

These are actually his words from only a few pages! We see him changing the position he attributes to us an incredible 5 times in only a few pages! This is totally evil, and this is how the devil, heretics and false prophets work to deceive and ensnare. They can condemn you again and again for what you don’t even hold, while the dumbed-down reader says, “oh, good point.” Here’s another example:

R.I., from our debate, page 20: “To rightly say as you do, that the Conciliar Church and John Paul II are not Catholic and teach notorious heresies to the flock and then to presume that the whole flock, or most of the flock is not in heresy, or only occult heretics, or invincible ignorant Catholics is the statement of a jackass. Excuse me, I did not mean to insult the animal. Animals are not that stupid.”

We’ve never said anything of the sort. R.I. is just lying again, by attributing to us a position we have never enunciated. (On the contrary, we point out that all who actually join the Conciliar Church by obstinately accepting its heresies or its Antipopes are non-Catholics.) But in misrepresenting our position, he can condemn us for something we never even said, and the dumbed-down reader says again: “Oh, good point.”

R.I., ‘Condemnation’ of J.L., pp. 4-5: “No pillar of fire and truth are you. No man of conviction are you. You [J.L.] are an effeminate coward. Can you picture St. Paul, or the Sons of Thunder, SS. John and James, attending Mass at a non-Catholic church and being in friendly communion with them?”

Since he has no facts, he must focus on what people can “picture.” He must drum up sentimental imagery, which he has learned from experience becomes all the more effective when he lies about what people hold. Can you picture SS. John and James going to confession to a Greek Schismatic in danger of death? Can you imagine these two saints reciting the act of contrition in the presence of the same schismatic, while the schismatic waits to bless them and absolve them of their sins? No, you can’t; but this is irrelevant, because the Church says that they can in danger of death. So please, stop playing on people’s emotions – and just give people the facts. Stop attributing to other people things that they never said, so that you can condemn them for what they don’t believe. It’s not about what we can picture, R.I.. It’s about what the Church teaches. By the way, R.I. is again using a straw man against J.L. too, because these churches are not non-Catholic in the external forum, but profess to be Catholic in the external forum, as discussed above.

More Examples of Dishonest Tactics

R.I. consistently brings up the fact that we knew a Biblical Scholar who was a heretic against the salvation dogma. What does this have to do with anything? Nothing. Do we condone this man’s heresy? No, of course not. We condemn it as much as anyone. I can just see his dumbed-down, heretical followers of R.I. saying, “oh, they knew someone who was a salvation heretic… you must be right and they are wrong…”

But R.I. will go back again and again to such irrelevant, emotional nonsense to distract his readers. Here is more of R.I.’s circular nonsense, in discussing the specific issue of when the baptized children of sect members become heretics:

R.I. says: “As soon as they profess belief in a false religion or join a heretical sect, they sin not only by commission but also by omission—by omitting to profess the Catholic religion and for omitting to join the Catholic Church.”

But what does it mean to “join a heretical sect”? That is precisely the specific issue at stake here! It must be proven with specificity. Do the children of SSPX heretics who attend Mass with them “join a heretical sect” by going to Mass with their parents? R.I. doesn’t like to address these things with any specificity; and, the few times he does, he falls all over himself in contradictions (as we have proven already). So most of the time he just pleases the itching ears of his heretical followers by arguing in a circle: “they sin [and become heretics] as soon as they join a heretical sect.” Thanks for telling us, R.I. Now I can understand as well that people “sin and become schismatics as soon as they join a schismatic sect.” Gee, what an enlightening observation! How instructive you are on this issue of when and how and what it takes for the baptized children of heretics to join the heretical or schismatic sect of their parents and cease to be Catholic!

Here is another example of the evil, circular arguments of R.I. These are clearly inspired by the devil, to confound his heretical readers, stymie their thought, and veil his indefensible positions:

R.I. “When a baptized child attains the use of reason, he is bound to turn to the true God, to the true religion, and to the true Church. He certainly does not do this by turning to a false religion or to a heretical sect, which is a sin of commission. He also sins by omission for not professing the Catholic faith or for not joining the Catholic Church.”

Again, he doesn’t tell us what it takes for the baptized infant (who is Catholic) to leave the Catholic Church (when reaching reason) and join the heretical sect. Then, notice that he says that this baptized child (above reason) sins for not joining the Catholic Church. But this person was already joined to the Catholic Church and given the Catholic Faith by his baptism as an infant!

So, the question is: what does it take for him to separate himself from the Church he already belongs to and leave it; the answer is an obstinate denial of the Faith or submission to the Roman Pontiff, as is clearly taught by Clement VI above. I specifically explained what would constitute an obstinate denial of the Faith or schism in the article against him (“Our Challenge to Debate R.I.”). But the purpose of R.I.’s vague and circular generalizations is to be able to imply a position that seems correct in the context in which he is speaking, and then retract that same position and amend it (since it was only implied but not specified) when it no longer holds.

Let me prove the point. As any reasonable person will agree, R.I.’s words above clearly imply (without stating it specifically) that all baptized children above reason attending an Eastern Schismatic church building or a heretical church building have sinned – and have ceased to be Catholics – for “joining a heretical sect” and “failing to enter the Catholic Church.”

“As soon as they profess belief in a false religion or join a heretical sect, they sin not only by commission but also by omission—by omitting to profess the Catholic religion and for omitting to join the Catholic Church.”

Since almost no Protestants or Eastern Schismatics require their followers to sign a statement of belief, his words cannot refer to signing a heretical statement. He is clearly indicating that all above reason who are present in a heretical church building have joined a heretical sect and are heretics. This is further proven by the fact that he says that we [the Dimond Brothers] are heretics for holding the opposite: that not all who are present in a heretical church building are heretics if they have not yet embraced the heresy. Thus, his position is clearly that all above reason who attend a non-Catholic church building with their parents have joined a heretical sect and are heretics; but it is not stated specifically, so that he can change it when needed, such as in the case of St. Josaphat.

St. Josaphat

In my article, I proved that St. Josaphat was a Catholic, even though he attended the Eastern Schismatic church building with his parents.

Pope Pius XI, Ecclesiam Dei, Encyclical on St. Josaphat, Nov. 12, 1923: “Our Saint [Josaphat] was born of schismatic parents but was validly baptized and received the name of John. From his earliest years he lived a saintly life. …even as a child he turned towards communion with the Ecumenical, that is, the Catholic Church. Of this Church he always considered himself a member because of the valid baptism which he had received. What is more, he felt himself called by a special Providence to re-establish everywhere the holy unity of the Church.”

St. Josaphat was a Catholic because he had not yet obstinately embraced the Eastern Schism. Notice that the Pope does not say that St. Josaphat condemned his parents as heretics, but that he “tended towards communion with the… Catholic Church.” This simply means that St. Josaphat was inclined to the truth from the beginning, but that he may have been unaware of the issue of the Eastern Schism [and their rejection of the Papacy] in good faith. Thus, St. Josaphat is an example of a Catholic young person who was attending an Eastern Schismatic church building with his parents but was not a heretic. This, of course, proves that today it is possible for the children of the SSPX and other heretics to be Catholics since they also don’t understand the issue. It totally refutes #’s 31 and 32 of R.I.’s schismatical abjuration.

Here is R.I.’s response to my evidence from St. Josaphat:

R.I. writes: “St. Josaphat -A baptized child with the use of reason who professes belief in his parents’ false religion or joins their heretical or schismatic sect falls outside the Catholic Church and becomes a Protestant child. Subsequently, to enter the Catholic Church, he must reject the false religion he professes and/or reject the false sect he joined, and he must also embrace and profess the Catholic religion in order to enter the Catholic Church. This was the case with St. Josaphat whose parents were schismatics:…Therefore, baptized children who profess their parents’ false religion or join their heretical or schismatic sect must do what St. Josaphat did if they want to become Catholic.”

R.I. writes that the children of schismatics “must do what St. Josaphat did if they want to become Catholic.” First of all, these baptized persons were already made Catholics by their baptism. Secondly, what did St. Josaphat do? St. Josaphat attended the schismatic church building [the Eastern Slavic Liturgy] with his parents! St. Josaphat rejected the Eastern Schism when he became cognizant of it, and converted many eastern Schismatics; but he was still a Catholic those years that he attended the Eastern Schismatic building because he had not embraced the Eastern Schism, was baptized and held the essential mysteries of the Catholic Faith. Thus, R.I. is changing his position by admitting that people [such as St. Josaphat] can be attending a non-Catholic church building with their parents and still be Catholic!

With this admission, he refutes his abjuration, and he shows that he agrees with us, and the very thing for which he said we were heretics, that not all the baptized children of non-Catholics become non-Catholics immediately at the age of reason. What an outrage from a dishonest, pitifully blinded and convoluted schismatic!

The Council of Elvira

In my article, I also brought forward evidence from the Council of Elvira which refuted R.I.’s abjuration.

Council of Elvira, Canon 22, 300 A.D.: “If someone leaves the Catholic Church and goes over to a heresy, and then returns again, it is determined that penance is not to be denied to such a one, since he has acknowledged his sin. Let him do penance, then, for ten years, and after ten years he may come forward to communion. If, indeed, there were children who were led astray, since they have not sinned of their own fault, they may be received without delay.” (The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1: 611n)

This means that the children above reason who were attending the church of a heretical sect with their parents were not heretics because they were not obstinately against something they knew to be taught by the Church. This is exactly what I said, and what R.I. called heretical. Since this statement from the Council of Elvira proves that our position is an acceptable position in the early Church – and even the mind of the early Church – it utterly refutes R.I.’s entire schismatic theology. So, how did he attempt to respond? His response is a desperately pathetic attempt to distort the truth.

R. I. writes: “The Council of Elvira clearly teaches that these children who were led astray by their parents must be received into the Catholic Church if they want to be Catholic. If they were already inside the Catholic Church, then there would be no need to receive them into Her.”

This is outrageous. R.I. is grabbing at anything he can; this is a desperate attempt to escape this evidence which destroys his abjuration. The fact that the Council of Elvira said that they may be “received” without delay does not mean that it considered them to be non-Catholics. These children most certainly were Catholics because a baptized child must sin by heresy, schism or apostasy to separate from the Church.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943:

“For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

But the Council of Elvira clearly teaches that they had not sinned of their own fault. Thus, the children could not have ceased to be Catholics. R.I. is a liar, plain and simple, who tries to mislead his readers and defend the indefensible (his schismatical abjuration), by distorting words in a manner clearly contrary the teaching of the Council of Elvira.

R.I. even attempts to add credibility to his distortion by quoting something from the Council of Carthage [an unrelated passage], which uses the words “received into the Catholic Church,” as if when the word received is used it always necessitates the meaning “received into the Catholic Church.” My, what lengths these heretics will go to in order to deceive! But this is refuted by pointing out that the Council of Elvira, like the Council of Carthage, is a regional Council, not a dogmatic one. Not every expression of the Council of Elvira or the Council of Carthage is infallible or absolutely precise, but the meaning of their teaching reflects the mind of the early Church. Let me give you an example:

Fr. Michael Muller, C.SS.R. The Catholic Dogma, 1888: “‘How grateful then,’ says St. Alphonsus, ‘ought we to be to God for the gift of the true faith. How great is not the number of infidels, heretics, and schismatics. The world is full of them, and, if they die out of the Church, they will all be condemned, except infants who die after baptism.’ (Catech. first command. No. 10 and 19.).”